Paging Dr. Hillary

[lalicopa]

...or any other wise pet people...

I took Tallulah for another shot today, this time it was the Lepto shot. The vet said that she wanted me to give the pup some wet food in addition to her dry puppy kibble because there's not a lot of meat on her lil puppy bones. So I stopped at the pet store, got some Nutra Max puppy food, gave Tallulah half a can (which she devoured) and then let her pee outside and put her in the crate so I could go to the mall.

I got home about an hour and a half later, and she's totally lethargic. I took her out to pee and she did, but then she just sat down and didn't want to walk or play. She ignored Kibbles. She just sat in my arms and didn't do much, and the injection site is hurting her.

I called the vet right away and they said she could be lethargic from the shot, and that as long as she's eating I shouldn't be concerned. But she's not due to eat for another hour or so. I did a little internet research on the vaccine, and there are definitely side effects, but it still seems like something I'd opt for her to get (should have done that before, I know).

Anyway, I'm just a little concerned about my wee pup. I'm gonna take her out in few more minutes and see if I can get a rise out of her at all.

Comments

[joy-disaster.livejournal.com]

This happened to my dog too, she got several vaccines at once (not my choice, my mom was handing it as it was right after Z was born) and she was lethargic and then had seizures. it is always amazing to me how little vets know of animal nutrition - canned food is good in general (technically "better" for them all other things being equal), but it is the dry food that actually causes animals to gain weight since it has no water volume. EVO is the best food, no corn or corn products in it which dogs can't digest. EVVO will put good healthy meat on her! Do you have the Dr. Pitcairn book? It is very comprehensive, I always recommend it to ease your mind about stuff and get answers.

[lalicopa.livejournal.com]

I never heard of that book, but I'm going to look into it. In my extensive dog owning experience, I've only had 2 bad vaccine things happen. The first was when I was 7 and the doctor forgot to take the air out of the syringe when she gave the dog a shot, and she got terribly swollen and required some surgery. I'm foggy on the details because I was a kid. I just know she had a scar for the rest of her life.

And the second was Alabama, who had an allergic reaction to a vaccine and was then given IV Benadryl when she'd get vaccinated, just to be on the safe side.

This is the first time I've seen this happen, and she's just SO out of it. The vet is spreading out her shots, at least several days apart, since she's so little and young. And I trust this vet. And my friend's dog actually had leptosporosis (sp) which killed her a couple of years ago.

Ramble, ramble, ramble...off to try and feed the lil puplet.

[webhill.livejournal.com]

It is always interesting to me when someone who has not been to veterinary school makes the statement that veterinarians in general do not know much about animal nutrition.

My veterinary school academic curriculum included a full semester of animal nutrition including a very comprehensive ration-designing module. My clinical rotations included a week on the nutrition service as well as a lot of nutrition rounds during time spent on the internal medicine service. I definitely feel that anyone who has been through a rigorous North American veterinary education has a strong grounding in animal nutrition, at least more than the average pet store worker who claims to know a billion times more (and I am not saying you are a pet store worker or are making any such claims, here!!!! I'm just making an example).

Canned food and dry food will both cause animals to gain weight if the appropriate amount is fed.

Dogs are omnivores. Dogs can, in fact, digest corn to an extent, especially when pre-ground and extruded in kibble form. There is a subset of dogs who tend to react more (food-allergy-wise) to grains than to animal proteins, though. From Small Animal Clinical Nutrition (vol. 4)(Hand, Remillard, et al.):

"Fillers are ingredients that serve no nutritional purpose, and corn does not fit that description. Corn is a nutritionally superior grain compared with others used in pet foods because it contains a balance of nutrients not found in other grains. Corn provides a highly available source of complex carbohydrates and substantial quantities of linoleic acid, an essential fatty acid important for heathy skin. Corn also provides essential amino acids and fiber. In a survey of veterinary dermatologists, corn was not listed among the ingredients most often suspected to cause food allergies. A review of over 200 confirmed canine cases of food allergy in the veterinary literature revealed only three were caused by corn. The same number was reported for rice."

EVO, made by Natura, is certainly a good dog food as far as I can tell (or I should say, good group of food products) and they have a good veterinary nutritionist on staff (who would probably be pissed hearing someone say vets don't know anything about animal nutrition), so that's good. But it's not categorically better than other similar products that are available.

[lalicopa.livejournal.com]

Funny you mentioned the pet store worker...because when I went to purchase the canned food this afternoon, the *owner* of the store told me that it was crazy to get wet food. I said, "Then why do you SELL so much wet food?" He made some excuse how people make the mistake of giving dogs canned food and the dogs like it so much better that they refuse dry food after. I've given my dogs both over the years and they've always been able to switch, as long as the switch was gradual.

In any case, the puppy ate, so according to our vet, I shouldn't be overly worried.

[joy-disaster.livejournal.com]

I don't have to go to vet school to have experience with vets and know that most of them recommend the food they sell in the waiting room, which is always "Science Diet", which is garbage food. Corn is not a good food for dogs, it makes their poops bigger and softer and is very allergenic to many dogs, mine stopped years of paw licking in just a few days of corn elimination, yet it took a Columbia University chemist, *not* a vet to give me that advice. It is simply not a necessary ingredient, it is cheap and that is the reason it is added. it is basically the opposite of an ancestral diet as even many mainstream vets are coming to realize. Dogs don't "digest" it, it passes though virtually unchanged. I stand by my assertion that corn is a bad food for dogs. If I need a DVM diploma to say it, then I'll go on the down low and whisper it only in speakeasies and back alleys. Isn't it possible that the one semester of nutrition info a et receives may, just possibly contain false outdated information? I have consistently received, over the last 20 years, information about nutrition for pets that has proven to be false and uninformed and which in some instances has caused harm. Is my experience just so bizarre or am I assumed to be lying? Is it SO out of the realm of possibility that a lay person might have good solid information that is not tainted by profit or pride? Is it so out of the realm of possibility that professionals can be wrong? If the vet on staff at EVO would indeed be pissed at my powerful damnation then s/he needs to take that anger to the vets whose books I have received much of my info from, namely Pitcairn and Goldstein. For the record, no I do not get any info from pet store workers, and it could be argued that vet offices that sell food in the waiting rooms can fall into that category as well.

This is also not the first time it is assumed that because I am not a vet i cannot know what a vet knows, or that I can have info the doesn't yet have or won't consider because it conflicts with their previously held beliefs. The texts and professional journals are available online and in university libraries that anyone can read. It is not arcane knowledge. When I expressed concern with my cats' vet about the number of vaccines she wanted to give and the documented side effects of some of the least necessary of them, rather than offer actual evidence based info she belittled me by huffing and saying, "you can't believe everything you read on the internet" though I had not even mentioned where the info came from, which was a hard copy book in this instance. It is that attitude which makes people like me read the journals and the texts to get the info ourselves, and it is no less true, and certainly no less evidence based (much more so, usually) than info the vet got in school and from promotional materials. Pet store employees like PetSmart don't know about dog nutrition either, but many non-medical professionals do because they have taken a lot of time to read evidence based research. I have dealt with the same problem in the childbirth field, assuming patients cannot possibly read evidence based info on their own. Not that it will matter, I nearly did go to vet school I was a pre-vet student as an undergrad.

[webhill.livejournal.com]

You can not make any kind of statement about "most vets" based on one person's experience, in my personal opinion.

Science Diet is not garbage food. That's a pretty strong statement.
"Corn... makes [dogs'] poops bigger and softer" is a blanket statement that simply does not apply to the vast majority of the dogs I have clinical experience with. LIke I said, there is a subset of dogs who react to grains in that way.

You don't need a DVM diploma to say anything. You can say whatever you want. Having or not having a DVM diploma (which btw I do not happen to have as that is not my degree) does not matter. You can be right or wrong with or without the degree. It's my opinion that someone holding a doctoral degree in veterinary medicine (which I do happen to have) is likelier than one who does not to have a good working knowledge of mammalian nutritional science.

Of course one semester of information can be outdated. For the record, behavioral medicine is also one semester. Physical examination is one semester. Neuroscience is one semester. Oncology is one semester. This is why the clinical scientists like physicians and veterinarians go into PRACTICE. Practice is the continuing learning and application of knowledge throughout the lifetime of the practicioner. I did not stop learning new things when I graduated. You have to stay on top of things, read journals, go to conferences, learn every day, or you do no good to anyone. So I am not at all worried that my university education is outdated. The foundation is there and when things are proven wrong I hear about it and learn the new information.

I do not believe you are lying, no. I do not know where or from whom you have received your false information, or what it specifically was, so I can't really comment. Certainly it is true that certain things have only recently come to light, for example with respect to diabetic cats and canned food diets, and so I can see how one would have previously gotten incorrect information about that.

I don't recall saying anything about anyone's "powerful damnation." I didn't recollect that you had a powerful damnation about anything. I do recall your saying that most vets don't know anything about dog nutrition, and I stand by my opinion that such a statement would probably piss off Natura's veterinary nutritionist.

I can't even reply to the statement that veterinary hospitals which sell pet food fall into the category of a pet store. It's absurd. We sell food purely as a convenience to our patients. Every single time we attempt to cut back on the foods we stock (which is often - it's a pain in the ass to sell food and we'd much rather not) the clients get pissed off.

I would never say that just because someone isn't a vet, he or she can't know what a vet knows. I knew a lot of stuff that a vet knows well before I went to veterinary school. I think any intelligent person is capable of learning the information, and it can be learned by reading and practicing along side a willing veterinarian very well.

I hear a lot of women complain (on the internet) that their OB/Gyns make such assumptions about them -that they can't understand medical stuff, blah blah. Never personally encountered it. I always have a two-way dialogue with my physicians and if one pisses me off I take it upon myself to fire him (but have only had to do that one time). I really don't know why so many women just put up with that crap. I don't see how it has anything to do with our discussion here, though, as I have never behaved like that in my entire life and am not about to start doing it now.

And not that it will matter, but I also studied literature and dramatic art with an emphasis on production undergrad, and very nearly did not go to veterinary school. Who cares?

[joy-disaster.livejournal.com]

I was being sarcastic about the damnation part because I can't imagine how anyone but the most super-defensive person would do more than shrug off my opinion and go about their practice.

OB/Gyns make such assumptions about them -that they can't understand medical stuff, blah blah.

this is relevant because it is exactly what vets have done to me and frankly what you are doing right now - you just don't realize it. It is profoundly belittling.

Have you read the books by Drs Pitcairn and Goldstein? They are vets, will you take their word?

[webhill.livejournal.com]

I realize exactly what I'm saying, and if you think what I am saying is that you can't understand stuff because you're not a vet, then you just don't understand ME.

Anyway, I have read Pitcairn, never heard of Goldstein. As with many authors, some of what Pitcairn says makes sense, and some does not. I do not take anyone's word just because of his or her degree, though.

[webhill.livejournal.com]

I'm not terribly surprised. The leptospirosis vaccine does cause the most "reactions" of any vaccine I give. It is well within normal post-vaccine behavior to be as you describe. Odds are she'll be fine within 48 hrs. You can ask your vet if he wants to give you an antiinflammatory... but most pups do fine without.

[lalicopa.livejournal.com]

Thanks Hillary...you're the best. :-)

I wish you could be her vet. I told the story about the woman who thought the shot would give her dog autism. The people who work at the vet were hysterical.

[schmoomom.livejournal.com]

Wait a minute...Hillary from mkb?!

[webhill.livejournal.com]

/me waves :)

[schmoomom.livejournal.com]

Lordy, I"ve been on here for how long and no on tells me these things?!?!?!

FRIENDED!